737 MAX: The Hits Keep Coming

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 02/19/2020 at 11:20 • Filed to: wingspan, Planelopnik

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United Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 9 at Austin Bergstrom International Airport in February 2019 (Tim Shaffer)

Boeing just can’t seem to catch a break with the beleaguered 737 MAX. The MAX has been grounded for almost a year after two of their newest airliners crashed, in part because of a faulty trim system known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS. Now, Boeing has revealed that foreign object debris, or FOD, has been discovered in the fuel tanks of some  737 MAX airliners parked and awaiting delivery, though they won’t say exactly what sort of debris was found. This setback joins a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for the troubled airliner including more software faults that were uncovered during the redesign of the MCAS system, as well as problems with the trim actuator. Despite the latest discovery, Boeing says that the company is still on track to return the MAX to the skies by the middle of the year.

Boeing Finds Debris In MAX Fuel Tanks

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CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:24

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Boeing is hiring locally.  I need a job...but pass.

Notchback88 > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:25

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Oof. FOD in fuel is a nightmare scenario. Speaks to me of lax manufacturing controls and processes.

Course, we once got an Hawk  direct from CCAD reset that had a rag in the robby tank so...yeah. It can happen.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:28

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Any rumors?  I’m damn curious what the FOD is-- there was some conjecture it might be shop rags and towels, that could plug the fuel feeds.  Nothing confirmed, but once again it makes The Lazy B (as we used to call it in Seattle) look pretty bad.

ttyymmnn > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 11:30

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They’ve also had FOD issues with the KC-67. I saw a Boeing video that touted their new moving production line. They showed a worker wearing knee pads who had to keep shuffling his position as the plane moved forward. No wonder workers are leaving parts and tools inside the aircraft. 

ttyymmnn > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 11:33

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Boeing’s not saying, for obvious reasons. Maybe they need to  ditch their moving production line. It’s like I tell my trumpet students: I don’t want to hear how fast you can play it. I want to know how well you can play it.

jimz > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:33

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supposedly a lot of Boeing’s woes are rooted in the merger with McDonnell-Douglas.  their “MBA culture” pushed out the more engineering-focused Boeing culture. 

facw > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:33

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Well the good news is they have at least until summer to inspect and clean them...

Boeing’s had debris problems with the KC-46 as well, though as that’s a different aircraft built at a different plant, it probably doesn’t say much other than Boeing might need to invest more in QA.

There’s been a bunch of stories today about Boeing dusting off the NLT (new light twin) plans from a decade ago as a starting point for a A321XLR competitor now that the NMA is back to the drawing board. I still wonder if they’d be better off just trying to re- engine the 767 with 787 engines and any updates from the KC-46 if they need a long range airline for people who think the 787 is too expensive.

ttyymmnn > jimz 02/19/2020 at 11:35

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Perhaps. But that was more than 20 years ago. That said, it does seem like making money has become more important  than making a quality product.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 11:36

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Bean counter CEO: What are all these Manufacturing Engineer s on the payroll for?

Engineering Director: They maintain process and quality control in our assembly line.

BC CEO: So they don’t add any real value to the product?

ED: Not directly, but...

BC CEO: Fire 90% of them then.

ED: But...

BC CEO: I said fire them!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:37

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How much fuel tank FOD has already been delivered? Caught in filters, leading to the discovery on the holding line?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 11:37

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Aren’t there filters?

jimz > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:37

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Rot progresses so slowly you don’t often notice it until it’s too late. 

ttyymmnn > facw 02/19/2020 at 11:41

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And the KC-46 can’t fulfill its refueling mission. The US AF is accepting planes it can’t use. Don’t forget the software screw up that almost doomed their last space launch.  This will take more than a change of CEO to fix. They need to shut everything down for a week and have some meetings. They need to refocus the entire company.

someassemblyrequired > jimz 02/19/2020 at 11:41

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The oldsters in Seattle have been saying for 20 years that MD’s culture would kill Boeing, the 737 Max is proving them right.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 11:43

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Well they’re all parked so there’s no immediate danger. But, yeah. How clean was the tank in that MAX 9 I photographed up top ? This could easily have been another issue that was only caught after another crash.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 11:44

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I’m sure there are, but having a sudden  obstruction in a primary fuel feed would make for a much more interesting take-off.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 11:45

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Sure, filters that could be damaged  or clogged by FOD.

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:45

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It seems like Douglas continues to haunt other manufactures .

facw > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:47

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I mean, it can do some of it’s mission. But clearly they should have started with a KC-46A with a traditional boom (which Boeing already had working in the KC-767) and saved the fancy new one for a KC-46B. Though actually, Boeing should have been banned from Pentagon contracts altogether after they bribed their way into the tanker lease deal.

Notchback88 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 11:52

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There are filters yes, and usually a screen at the feed from the tank. But a fully clogged filter pushes no fuel (or gets bypassed), and a partially obscured one can reduce fuel pressure which is also very bad.

These are things that make pilots sweat. 

ttyymmnn > facw 02/19/2020 at 11:52

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Yeah, the 46 is a great cargo plane, if the pallets don’t break free. I’ve read that Airbus uses a similar video refueling system(that works),  and that the boom scraping problem is only limited to aircraft with stealth coating. Still, I don’t understand the need to reinvent the wheel here. Put a guy in the back and have him look out the damned window.

Notchback88 > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 02/19/2020 at 11:54

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A friend of mine is leaving the engineering job she has here to work for Boeing. For her sake, I hope it improves over there. 

Notchback88 > Notchback88 02/19/2020 at 11:55

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That being said, I’ll still take a Boeing helicopter over a Sikorsky. 

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 11:55

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I don't even know how this happens. Vandals? Angry assembly line workers? Rabbits?

For Sweden > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 02/19/2020 at 11:55

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I don't work in QC and I'm still triggered right now

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 02/19/2020 at 11:56

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Definitely rabbits. 

ranwhenparked > jimz 02/19/2020 at 11:56

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I think a lot of Boeing’s recent problems are related to excessive consolidation in general in both civil and defense sectors, lack of competition and overreliance on a single customer for defense products. Even setting aside the McDonnell Douglas acquisition, there's a lot of rot and complacency that will naturally set in from having a largely secure/protected dominant position in the market, being too economically and strategically important to be allowed to fail, and not facing effective competitive pressure on enough fronts.

MD did build some pretty rugged airframes though

Spanfeller is a twat > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 02/19/2020 at 12:01

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TQMS!

Time to Quit and Move to Seattle Seville!

facw > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:04

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So I think there are three reasons:

It gives Boeing something to charge a bunch of money for

I’m not sure if this is true, but I’ve read the KC-46 wouldn’t be able to meet its cargo/fuel volume requirements with a boom operator station.

If they have any sense at all, they plan to eventually replace the operator with a fully automated refueling process (which would be safer and more efficient), but for that you need the cameras and fly by wire boom to work.  

Gone > jimz 02/19/2020 at 12:05

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That article may have been posted here, but I can’t remember. Certainly was an eye opener.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154944/boeing-737-max-investigation-indonesia-lion-air-ethiopian-airlines-managerial-revolution

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > For Sweden 02/19/2020 at 12:07

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I asked Ttyymmnn: how much fuel tank FOD has already been delivered? Have you heard what the debris consisted of?

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:29

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I’ve read it is the first step in completely automating the refueling process. No more crew in planes. Everyone is on the ground flying the plane from Nebraska.

For Sweden > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/19/2020 at 12:30

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I have not heard. I suspect the assembly workers knew the planes were going straight to storage and went full YOLO with part and tool control

ttyymmnn > Future next gen S2000 owner 02/19/2020 at 12:40

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That is certainly the future. The Navy will likely have autonomous refueling first. Thing is, I’m not convinced that technology or  automation is the answer to everything.

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 12:51

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Don’t tell that to the people developing all the autonomous drones and AI. Haha

Spanfeller is a twat > Gone 02/19/2020 at 14:44

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Reading that “capitalism does half assed things” the context of aviation made me cringe. 

ranwhenparked > For Sweden 02/19/2020 at 16:50

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Same way you'd buy an old Jaguar with a wrench inside the door cavity or a Chrysler with a missing weld on a roof support bracket. 

ranwhenparked > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 02/19/2020 at 16:59

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I wonder if workers did kind of a lazier job on the planes built after the grounding, knowing they were going straight into mothballs and would have to be through checked and inspected before entering service anyway. Sort of like how GM used to pass defective cars off the line, intentionally leaving problems for dealers to sort out, so as to keep everything moving on schedule.

thatsmr > ttyymmnn 02/19/2020 at 22:52

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What kind of break do they deserve for a poorly designed update of a 50 year old platform from an aerodynamic standpoint, and then tried to use poor software to make this pig fly??? Maybe they can sell this non flying pig for pink floyd reuinion shows

ttyymmnn > thatsmr 02/19/2020 at 22:58

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Never said they deserved a break. Boeing  screwed the pooch on this one. 

thatsmr > facw 02/19/2020 at 23:13

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Read your own post. Boeing put themselves in the weeds with old shit, cynical updates to make a not aerodynamic craft, hoping software could fix it, and you are hoping they “dust off” old designs, or do the same cheap poorly engineered engined patches again like the maxx? Boeing deserves all its fuel tanks to accidently be filled with concrete

pip bip - choose Corrour > ttyymmnn 02/20/2020 at 02:32

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hopefully i never fly in one of those

ttyymmnn > pip bip - choose Corrour 02/20/2020 at 07:58

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Theoretically, it should be one of the safest planes in the sky when they’re done with it. But they just keep finding stuff wrong with it.